We just released Episode 14 of our podcast, Take Flight! And in this exciting episode, our hosts, Chaz and Motso, chat with Gina Balarin about empathy in marketing.
Gina Balarin joined our hosts once again in our brand-new episode to explore why empathy is critical for leaders, businesses, and marketers today. We've got two other episodes with Gina, where we navigate the skill of active listening. It’s definitely worth a listen, so head over to our podcast page and enjoy.
There isn't an obvious connection between empathy and marketing, but here’s Gina’s take on it:
"Any good marketer thinks that our job is just to get messages out there. What we forget is that actually, we shouldn't just be getting messages out without understanding who we're getting the messages out to, and why they should care "—Gina Balarin
There’s an acronym that Gina loves to use called WIIFY, which means What’s In It For You? Gina explains that if you want someone to do something, you have to be able to convince them that they want to do it. So you have to understand what's in it for them, which requires deep listening to what it is that actually makes them want that thing in the first place. And often, as marketers, we forget to ask these important questions.
“Empathetic marketers don't just produce great content. They understand what is in people's hearts and souls. They understand, and are able to address, the what's in it for me factor, the why should I care factor.”
Gina explains that people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it. They buy the feeling and the philosophy behind it. In other words, people are actually more interested in products not for what they do, but for how they make them feel. And that feeling needs to be articulated by marketers, and one way to do this is to truly, deeply listen to what our audience is saying.
“To me, it is about the why of what you do, and when your why, the reason that you provide the goods or services that you do aligns with your buyers why, it's a beautiful, almost seamless experience. And how do you make that work? By asking with empathy.”
When it comes to empathy and leadership, Gina argues that it is a surprisingly rare skill for leaders to have. In order to illustrate this argument, Gina refers to the DISC profile.
D: The dominant quadrant. This quadrant tends to be directors or people who instruct you to do something. Usually, CEOs fit into these categories.
I: Influencers and innovators. These people tend to be more intuitive. They're all about the ideas.
S: These are steady relators. They like to be secure; they like to be safe; they like to make sure that everything is going smoothly and they keep you on track, and they will provide support.
C: These are people who are conscientious. They will dot the I’s and cross the T’s, and they'll make sure that you have the right processes and controls, and that things are going to go smoothly.
Where exactly does empathy fit into these quadrants? The problem arises when the conflict between these quadrants occurs. For instance, the director who wants to get things done is in conflict with a steady relator who wants everyone to be happy and get along.
Gina explains, “They're in conflict because the idea of getting things done now, versus getting things done in a way that is harmonious, is often in conflict with itself. So what ends up is that leaders are not often as empathetic as they could be, or more importantly, they're not often as able to demonstrate empathy as they could be. That doesn't mean that they're not empathetic, it just means that they're forced, by the nature of their role, to focus more on getting stuff done, on achieving results, than on getting on with people and creating harmony.”
Gina says that being able to use empathy doesn't mean that you have to be a naturally empathetic person. You just have to learn how to make it work for you, and she uses Daniel Murray’s steps to elaborate on this. Daniel Murray is the Chief Empathy Officer at Empathetic Consulting, and he proposes four steps to help you learn how to use empathy in a way that works for you.
Step 1: Become consciously curious. This means that you're not just asking questions, you're actually deliberately wanting to know more. And by being consciously curious, it means you've got to park your biases and preconceptions because if you are already making judgements before someone talks, you're not going to be able to listen to them effectively.
Step 2: Exploring openly. One question that Daniel says which was really effective is asking someone, "That's really interesting. Tell me more." It's all about using open-ended questions. He also says it's important to let people tell their stories, without interrupting.
Step 3: Challenging your original model. This means as much as you've parked your judgment at the beginning of the conversation, it sneaks back in. And so, while you have to be consciously curious, you also need to think about what life is really like for the person you're interviewing when you're writing for them. You need to be able to think about what is life like in their shoes, and then turn that into a way of understanding their world.
Step 4: Inspiring curiosity. It's not enough for us to be curious when we're listening. True empathy actually comes from inspiring curiosity in other people.
“As marketers, we tend to get enthusiastic about the things that we love, our products, and our services. We want everyone else to do the same thing. But if we have actually lived inside a prospect's world, we start to understand them. And as a result, we are logically able to inspire their curiosity by sharing stories of people like them, real-life customer case studies, stories, and quotes.”
Another key takeaway from this episode is that marketers need to understand that buyers are no longer B2B or B2C. This has evolved to become H2H, human to human.
“We run the risk of creating any type of marketing that talks to people as if they are somehow automated, and they are not really humans. They're buying groups. ‘They are CEOs.’ What does that mean? You know, I'd rather have someone who is Gert van der Westhuizen, who has a business that is this size, and who struggles with this challenge. You know, they have a real name; they have a real face.”
One parting thought that Gina left us with was that as marketers, we actually need to be solving a problem that allows our buyers to be somehow better, different, or more. And when we do that right, the power of marketing can actually help people feel a little better about themselves, the world, and just who they are and what they do. And when we do marketing like that, that is when we should be proud to be marketers.
Don’t forget to follow Gina Balarin on LinkedIn and have a look at Verballlistics. Reach out to us and let us know how you’re going to show more empathy. Listen to this episode in full and remember to always practice active listening.
Listen to Episode 14 in full here:
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Full Transcript below:
Motso: (00:00)
Do better.
Chaz: (00:01)
Be better.
Motso: (00:02)
Welcome back to the Spitfire podcast, Take Flight. We're your hosts Motso...
Chaz: (00:06)
And Chaz, Inbound Implementers and Social Media Specialists at Spitfire Inbound. Joining us all the way from the land of Aus is communications expert, Gina Balarin, TEDx speaker, author, and founder of Verballistics. And today we're discussing something a little different, Why empathy is critical for leaders, businesses, and marketers today.
Motso: (00:31)
We've got two other episodes up with Gina, where we navigate the tricky world of active listening. It's worthwhile to give it a listen if you want to implement empathy in a practical way in your business. Gina, thank you so much for joining us today.
Gina: (00:46)
It is my absolute pleasure to be with you. Now let's get empathetic.
Chaz: (00:51)
Let's get empathetic. I'm going to start off referring back to episode two, The How of Active Listening. We ended off with the six key active listening skills which are: pay attention, withhold judgment, reflect, clarify, summarise, and share. And we ended off speaking about how important it is to do that last step, which is sharing. And I feel like it feeds really well into our topic of empathy because I mean, B2B buyers want empathy. They don't want empty promises. So empathy and marketing. What is the link here?
Gina: (01:35)
It's not immediately obvious, is it? After all, any good marketer thinks that our job is just to get messages out there. What we forget is that actually, we shouldn't just be getting messages out without understanding who we're getting the messages out to, and why they should care. There's an acronym that I like to use and it's so obvious to anyone who knows it, WIIFY, otherwise known as ‘Wiify’. What's in it for you? We often refer to it as what's in it for me. Now, this seems really obvious because if you want someone to do something, you have to be able to help convince them that they want to do it. So you have to understand what's in it for them. Now, this requires deep listening to what it is that actually makes them want that thing in the first place. What drives them, and what creates that compulsion?
Gina: (02:26)
And yet, as marketers, I don't know if it's arrogance, or if it's just that we are not always that great at research. We tend to forget to ask those questions. Now, what does this have to do with empathy? This sounds more like active listening, right? In fact, it has everything to do with empathy, because empathetic marketers don't just produce great content. They understand what is in people's hearts and souls. They understand, and are able to address, the what's in it for me factor, the why should I care factor. And what we've done a lot in the past as marketers is simply said, “Buy my product, it's great.” That doesn't help convince anyone unless they already know, like, and trust your product. I'm reminded of an example by Simon Sinek. You may have seen his TED Talk on the original Start With Why, where he explains the principles.
Gina: (03:22)
In a TEDx talk I did about marketing in the era of authenticity, I remember actually learning and rewriting, almost re-telling his story. And he used the example of Apple. And what he says about Apple, is that originally people would just be asked to buy a product. Why? But what Apple did differently, and this is back in the day, not necessarily so much now, is they started by saying, “Everything we do, we do differently. We believe in challenging the status quo. We do that by providing products that are beautifully designed, easy to use, and user-friendly. Want to buy one?” It's a very different scenario to someone who simply says, “Our products are beautifully designed, easy to use, and user-friendly. Want to buy one?” I don't know if I explained that really clearly, but to me, it is about the why of what you do, and when your why, the reason that you provide the goods or services that you do, aligns with your buyers why, it's a beautiful, almost seamless experience. And how do you make that work? By asking with empathy.
Motso: (04:38)
Hmm. Nice. I like that you bring the concept of why into the conversation. Because a lot of times as marketers, especially traditional marketers, because we're in a digital space, they tend to focus on product, product, product. And what we've seen over the years is that the whole methodology doesn't necessarily work, now. Because customers nowadays have many options, and when we focus on the why, or we sort of use the empathetic side, to kind of show them why they would, it would help them to go with product A instead of product B, because product B helps them to meet a particular need in their lives.
Gina: (05:26)
So, you're absolutely right. People don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it. They buy the feeling and the philosophy behind it, as we're discovering from more and more people talking about Environmental Sustainability and Governance issues, ESG, we're realising that people are actually more interested in products not for what they do, but for how they make them feel. So, with people who have a lot of disposable income, it's no longer a question of competing on price. It becomes a question of competing on something intangible, something nebulous. That thing is a feeling. That feeling has to be articulated by marketers in some way. How can we do that? We have to truly, deeply listen to what our audience wants and tap into almost the zeitgeist, or the feeling behind the reason that they're buying that product or service. Because people, we might say that people buy rationally, but actually we all base our rational decisions on the emotions that drive that decision.
Motso: (06:32)
And yeah, talking about that, because if we're talking about empathy right now, and you know, many times we don't necessarily think about it, but what is the connection between empathy and leadership? Is this a rare skill for leaders to have?
Gina: (06:48)
It is a surprisingly rare skill. I'm going to illustrate this point by referring to the disc profile, DISC. If you're not familiar with it, I'll summarise it very briefly. Think about it in four quadrants. People can be divided into those who are ‘Ds’. So they tend to be dominant, they tend to be directors or people who instruct you to do something. Usually, CEOs fit into these categories. You've got people who sit in the ‘I’ quadrant. These are people who are influencers and innovators. They tend to be intuitive. They're all about the ideas. Then you've got people who are in the ‘S’ quadrant. These are steady relators. They like to be secure, they like to be safe, they like to make sure that everything is going smoothly and they keep you on track, but they will definitely provide support. And lastly, you've got the ‘C’ quadrant.
Gina: (07:42)
These are people who are conscientious. They will dot the Is and cross the Ts, and they'll make sure that you have the right processes and controls, and that things are going to go smoothly. Now, the problem is, where does empathy sit in this batch? Well, if you think about it, now imagine the quadrant goes D I S C. Think about that. Like the signs of a compass with a D on the top left, I on the top right, S on the bottom right, and C on the bottom left. Now, if you imagine this in your head, you can see that D is diagonally opposite from S. And if you think about it, who are people in conflict with each other? Well, often the director who wants to get things done, is in conflict with a steady relator who wants to just, everyone must be happy and they must all get along.
Gina: (08:29)
They're often in conflict with each other. What happens is that the leaders tend to have less ability to empathise with people. Whereas, those who sit in the ‘S’ quadrant tend to have more ability to empathise with each other. They're in conflict because the idea of getting things done now, versus getting things done in a way that is harmonious, is often in conflict with itself. So what ends up is that leaders are not often as empathetic as they could be, or more importantly, they're not often as able to demonstrate empathy as they could be. That doesn't mean that they're not empathetic, it just means that they're forced, by the nature of their role, to focus more on getting stuff done, on achieving results, than on getting on with people and creating harmony. What we've learned over the years, and especially in the post-COVID, or during the COVID era that we’re living in, is that empathy is actually essential to effective collaboration.
Gina: (09:28)
You can shout at people all you want, but unless they actually want to do the job, you're not going to get great work out of them. Sure, you will pay them and they might do the job, but it doesn't mean they're going to enjoy the job. It doesn't mean you're going to inspire them or get them to do their best work, or you might not even get them to do a job at all. But you can't really tell them off because they're doing something, they're just not doing it with their heart or soul. And that is the difference between an empathetic leader and one who is not able to demonstrate empathy. Now, there's a big difference here because it's possible to be a leader who uses empathy to understand others, and not actually be sucked into their emotional traumas. I don't know if you guys have ever come across that, where you want to help someone, but actually, you just get drowned by the stuff that's going on in their lives.
Gina: (10:18)
Well, there is a tip here from a guy who I interviewed a few years ago called Daniel. And Daniel is an expert on empathy. Why? Because he has reached out very extensively. Daniel Murray is the Chief Empathy Officer at Empathetic Consulting. And what he discovers is that actually being able to use empathy doesn't mean that you have to be a naturally empathetic human being. You just have to learn how to make it work for you. And these are the four steps that he proposes. Okay. The first step is to become consciously curious. That means that you're not just asking questions, you're actually deliberately wanting to know more. And by being consciously curious, it means you've got to park your biases and preconceptions because if you are already making judgements before someone talks, you're not going to be able to listen to them effectively. The second step is to explore openly.
Gina: (11:12)
One question that he says which was really effective is to ask someone, "That's really interesting. Tell me more." It's all about using open-ended questions. He also says it's important to shut up long enough to let people tell their story, something that we aren't always great at, right, guys? Step three is to challenge your original model. And that means as much as you've parked your judgment at the beginning of the conversation, it sneaks back in. And so, while you have to be consciously curious, you also need to think about what life is really like for the person you're interviewing. When you're writing for them, you need to be able to think about what is life like in their shoes, and then turn that into a way of understanding their world, and make sure that it's actually IRATE. Now, here's an acronym I use. IRATE obviously doesn't mean to get angry.
Gina: (12:02)
It stands for interesting, relevant, appropriate, timely, and entertaining, educational, or engaging. If we think about this in a marketing context, we really want to make sure that anything we produce for our audience is IRATE. We don't want them to get angry or irate while they're consuming it. The last step, step four here, is to inspire curiosity. It's not enough for us to be curious when we're listening. True empathy actually comes from inspiring curiosity in other people. As marketers, we tend to get enthusiastic about the things that we love, our products, and our services. We want everyone else to do the same thing. But if we have actually lived inside a prospect's world, we start to understand them. And as a result, we are logically able to inspire their curiosity by sharing stories of people like them, real-life customer case studies, stories, and quotes. We can provide evidence that they're not alone. And in that way, we can inspire them to take the next step in the buyer's journey, and to get curious about how we can actually solve their problems. If we don't follow these leadership principles and use these conscious tactics to be able to peel away the facade that separates us, we're less likely to be able to produce content and marketing activities that actually resonate with our audience.
Chaz: (13:22)
I'm going to be the person that comes and says, obviously, HubSpot and inbound marketing, the methodology, these principles that we've been speaking about feed so well into that. And I was in the traditional marketing space before I started at Spitfire and started adopting inbound marketing. And for me, I always felt like there was something missing. I was sitting there, and we were speaking to our customers and, you know, they were listening because they were already loyal in some way, but there was just something missing. And when I started at Spitfire and we used the inbound methodology, and this empathetic and human way of marketing, really just made me realise, “Ah, this is the missing puzzle piece”. Because, you know, you spoke about authenticity, and it really is, people are people, and everyone has a brain and everyone can think for themselves. And yes, your product is, or your service is useful, and yes, it should be marketed in the most amazing way, but it can be marketed in a way that just helps the world be a better place.
Gina: (14:38)
What a beautiful sentiment.
Gina: (14:41)
I agree. I think it's important to realise that buyers are not B2B or B2C. They are H2H, it's human to human. Yeah. And when we run the risk of creating any type of marketing that talks to people as if they are somehow automatons, and they are not really humans. They're buying groups. ‘They are CEOs.’ What does that mean? You know, I'd rather have someone who is Gert van der Westhuizen, who has a business that is this size, and who struggles with this challenge. You know, they have a real name; they have a real face. They actually are human beings. This is often where we struggle with personas. I know personas are very popular in marketing. And don't get me wrong, when they're done right, they can be incredibly powerful, but when they're done wrong, all that happens is you end up with a caricature of someone and you don't really understand their problems. If you don't create a persona that's based on genuine curiosity and active empathy right at the beginning, you're more likely to just end up creating noise that doesn't solve their real problems. Why? Because you're never bothered to find out what the real problem was in the first place.
Motso: (15:56)
And I like that you talk about buyer personas. I think buyer personas evolve over time. So you can start off with a particular persona, but as you get to learn your customer, that whole persona might be completely different because people's needs, or how they interpret information changes. So you need to move with how they actually interpret information as well.
Gina: (16:19)
I hadn't considered it that way, Motso, but I think you're right. Because as much as your products and services change over time, your buyer's needs will change over time as well, hopefully. Unless you keep acquiring new buyers, in which case maybe you know, they have the same need as the person who's now been with you for five years did, five years ago. I mean, theoretically, if you're selling shoes, people will always have a need to buy and wear shoes, but that doesn't mean that they won't want a new type of shoe. And why would they want a new type of shoe? Well, in order to understand that, you have to understand the buyer's motivations. No one buys shoes just because they want something to cover their feet. We don't live in that environment anymore. We buy shoes because they make us feel something. They evoke an emotion. They might give us a sense of status or power. They make us feel beautiful. They make us feel tall. I don't know. I like shoes that make me feel tall. Personally, I'm only five foot. So every little helps.
Chaz: (17:14)
<Laugh>.
Gina: (17:15)
But, the important thing about that buyer's journey and understanding is that as we evolve our businesses, we need to evolve our understanding of our purchasers. Otherwise, we just end up solving the same problems for them over and over and over again. And that's not really rewarding, is it?
Chaz: (17:34)
No. Where's the fun in that? So I know what my key takeaway is for today. It's H2H, and if that goes viral, that's completely on you, Gina.
Gina: (17:49)
<Laugh>.
Chaz: (17:51)
But what key takeaway should our listeners have from this episode? But from these topics as a whole? I mean, from episode one straight through to episode three, it really is about active listening, and that creates empathy and that solves the customer's needs in the most effective way for everyone to benefit. Well, Wiffy, Miffy… So, from you Gina, what key takeaway should our listeners have from this episode?
Gina: (18:29)
It's a bit silly, but I'm going to quote Shrek.
Chaz: (18:32)
<Laugh>. He was half right.
Gina: (18:36)
Do you remember Shrek saying ogres have layers and onions have layers?
Chaz: (18:42)
Yes. The great poet. <Laugh>.
Gina: (18:45)
Well, humans have layers too. And so should, in an ideal world, a great marketing campaign. When we peel back the layers of who our ideal customers are, we discover more about what really drives them. And when we can connect emotionally with what makes them come alive, what gives them a sense of purpose, and what solves their real issues, we are able to get to that deeper layer of meaning. We've peeled away the layers. We use empathy to peel back those layers. And every layer we peel back, gets rid of our expectations about them. The boilerplate responses that we use, the behavioural norms that we expect from them to help them reveal their true selves. It sounds a bit uncomfortable, sounds like a type of psychology, doesn't it? But really, that is what active listening and empathy is actually designed to do. It is designed to help everyone in the marketing journey understand so we can connect emotionally.
Gina: (19:47)
And that is the key to a long-lasting and successful relationship. That we're not just spewing nonsense out to people because they have to have more of this thing because everyone else wants one. No, we're actually solving a problem that allows them to be somehow better, different, or more. And when we do that right, that is why I believe in the power of marketing, because we're actually helping people feel a little bit better about themselves, the world, just who we are and what we do. And when we do marketing like that, that is when we should be proud to be marketers.
Chaz: (20:26)
Well, I'm a believer <Laugh>. Thank you, Gina, so much for joining us on that, and for allowing us to actively listen to you for three episodes. You can find all the links that Gina refers to as well as her books in the episode description.
Motso: (20:45)
Gina, where can our listeners find you on social?
Gina: (20:48)
Please look me up on LinkedIn. It is where I hang out most of the time. You can also go to verballlistics.com.au. That is a bit tricky to spell. So, if you don't mind, I'll spell it out for our listeners. It's V E R B A L L I S T I C s.com.au. And that's because Verballistics makes your words go mental. <Laugh>. Look me up, reach out, and please get in touch. I love having conversations with people because the more I get to talk to people, the more I get to listen and understand.
Motso: (21:25)
Nice! So thank you again Gina and check out the blog post connected to this episode at spitfireinbound.com. And also, we'd love for you to follow, like, and subscribe to this podcast, and for you to leave a review as well. So, remember to follow us, or tag us on social, with the handle @Spitfireinbound, and drop us any thoughts, any suggestions, or any future episode suggestions that you like on this episode, using the hashtag #TakeFlight, and #ActiveListening. And thank you again. See you soon. Bye.
Gina: (22:01)
Bye.
